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Prices by grade
PSA 10 = 71.4× raw
Today's figures for every tier.
Raw · ungraded£16.38
Grade 9£81.58
Grade 9.5£89.74
PSA 10£1,170
BGS 10£1,521
CGC 10£111
A PSA 10 sells for 71.4× the raw card — a gap of £1,154. Grading fees and the risk of a 9 come out of that.
At a glance
30-day high£34.96
30-day low£11.13
Tracked high£34.96
Days tracked139
IllustratorKen Sugimori
Pokédex25
Price history
117 readings · 139d
£34.96+195.5%HoloHawk£16.38+16.3%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
9 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.8310 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.8311 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.8312 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.8313 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.4814 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.4815 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.4816 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.9624 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0825 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0826 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4527 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4528 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4629 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4630 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4631 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.38
£20.00£30.00
24 Aug26 Aug26 Aug28 Aug28 Aug31 Aug
£34.96+32.9%HoloHawk£16.38+9.5%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
17 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1318 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1319 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1320 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1321 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1322 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1323 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1324 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.1325 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0826 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0827 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0828 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0829 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0830 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.0831 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.081 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.962 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.983 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.984 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.855 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.856 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.857 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.628 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.629 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.6210 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.6211 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.8912 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.8913 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£15.8914 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£16.2515 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£16.2516 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.2517 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.6118 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.6119 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6820 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6821 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6822 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6823 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0824 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0825 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0826 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4527 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4528 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4629 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4630 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4631 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.38
£20.00£30.00
1 Aug3 Aug7 Aug17 Aug23 Aug31 Aug
£34.96+145.3%HoloHawk£16.38+25.5%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
14 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.0515 Apr 2026PriceCharting£12.6916 Apr 2026PriceCharting£12.6917 Apr 2026PriceCharting£12.6918 Apr 2026HoloHawk£14.25PriceCharting£12.6919 Apr 2026HoloHawk£14.25PriceCharting£12.1320 Apr 2026HoloHawk£14.25PriceCharting£12.1321 Apr 2026HoloHawk£14.25PriceCharting£12.1322 Apr 2026HoloHawk£14.25PriceCharting£14.3123 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3124 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3525 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3526 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3527 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3528 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.1529 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.1530 Apr 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.151 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£15.582 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£15.583 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.804 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.805 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.806 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.807 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£12.538 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£12.539 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£12.5310 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.0811 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.0812 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.0813 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3014 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3015 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£14.3016 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£13.3417 May 2026HoloHawk£23.89PriceCharting£13.3418 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.3419 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.3420 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.9221 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.9222 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.7123 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.7124 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.7125 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.6026 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.6027 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.6028 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.6029 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.6030 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.1931 May 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£12.191 Jun 2026HoloHawk£15.62PriceCharting£13.602 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£13.603 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£13.604 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£12.305 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£12.306 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£12.287 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£12.288 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£12.289 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£14.8310 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£14.8311 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£14.8312 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£14.8313 Jun 2026HoloHawk£23.06PriceCharting£13.3414 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£13.3415 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£13.3416 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£13.8517 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£13.8518 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.7319 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.7320 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.7321 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.7322 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£16.3323 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£16.3324 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£16.7225 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£16.7226 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£16.7227 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.8228 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.8229 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.8230 Jun 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.821 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.832 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.833 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.834 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.835 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.836 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.837 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£15.208 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£15.209 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.28PriceCharting£14.9610 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.19PriceCharting£14.9611 Jul 2026HoloHawk£24.19PriceCharting£14.9612 Jul 2026HoloHawk£26.31PriceCharting£14.9613 Jul 2026HoloHawk£26.31PriceCharting£14.8314 Jul 2026HoloHawk£26.31PriceCharting£14.8315 Jul 2026HoloHawk£26.31PriceCharting£14.8316 Jul 2026HoloHawk£26.31PriceCharting£14.9417 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9418 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9419 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9420 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9421 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9422 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9423 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.9424 Jul 2026HoloHawk£11.13PriceCharting£14.8325 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.8326 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.8327 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.8928 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.8929 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.8930 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.9631 Jul 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.961 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.962 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.983 Aug 2026HoloHawk£27.08PriceCharting£14.984 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.855 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.856 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£16.857 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.628 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.629 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.6210 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.6211 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.8912 Aug 2026HoloHawk£11.83PriceCharting£15.8913 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£15.8914 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£16.2515 Aug 2026HoloHawk£31.48PriceCharting£16.2516 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.2517 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.6118 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.6119 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6820 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6821 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6822 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.6823 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0824 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0825 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.0826 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4527 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4528 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4629 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4630 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£14.4631 Aug 2026HoloHawk£34.96PriceCharting£16.38
£20.00£30.00
14 Apr8 May4 Jun28 Jun21 Jul31 Aug
Three independent readings on one scale. A reading is recorded only when a price changes, so a flat stretch means it held. Hover for any day. PulseTCG has no readings for this card yet.
14 Apr 2026PSA 10£33915 Apr 2026PSA 10£33916 Apr 2026PSA 10£33917 Apr 2026PSA 10£33918 Apr 2026PSA 10£33919 Apr 2026PSA 10£33920 Apr 2026PSA 10£33921 Apr 2026PSA 10£33922 Apr 2026PSA 10£33923 Apr 2026PSA 10£33924 Apr 2026PSA 10£33925 Apr 2026PSA 10£33926 Apr 2026PSA 10£33927 Apr 2026PSA 10£33928 Apr 2026PSA 10£33929 Apr 2026PSA 10£33930 Apr 2026PSA 10£3391 May 2026PSA 10£3392 May 2026PSA 10£3393 May 2026PSA 10£3394 May 2026PSA 10£3395 May 2026PSA 10£3396 May 2026PSA 10£3397 May 2026PSA 10£3398 May 2026PSA 10£3399 May 2026PSA 10£33910 May 2026PSA 10£33911 May 2026PSA 10£33912 May 2026PSA 10£33913 May 2026PSA 10£33914 May 2026PSA 10£33915 May 2026PSA 10£33916 May 2026PSA 10£1,16017 May 2026PSA 10£1,16018 May 2026PSA 10£1,16019 May 2026PSA 10£1,16020 May 2026PSA 10£1,16021 May 2026PSA 10£1,16022 May 2026PSA 10£1,16023 May 2026PSA 10£1,16024 May 2026PSA 10£1,16025 May 2026PSA 10£1,16026 May 2026PSA 10£1,16027 May 2026PSA 10£1,16028 May 2026PSA 10£1,16029 May 2026PSA 10£1,16030 May 2026PSA 10£1,16031 May 2026PSA 10£1,1601 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1602 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1603 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1604 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1605 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1606 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1667 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1668 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,1669 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16910 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16911 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16912 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16913 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16914 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16915 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16916 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16017 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16018 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16019 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16020 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16021 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16022 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16023 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,16024 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02225 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02226 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02227 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02228 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02229 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,02230 Jun 2026PSA 10£1,0221 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0602 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0603 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0604 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0605 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0606 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0607 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0608 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,0609 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11310 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11311 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11312 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11313 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,13514 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,13515 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,13516 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10917 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10918 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10919 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10920 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10921 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10922 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10923 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,10924 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11325 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11326 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11327 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11328 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11329 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11330 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,11331 Jul 2026PSA 10£1,1131 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,1132 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,1133 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,1134 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£1115 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£1116 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£1117 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£1118 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£1119 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11110 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£94.19Grade 9£85.29BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11111 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£93.45Grade 9£85.13BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11112 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£93.45Grade 9£85.13BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11113 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£93.45Grade 9£85.13BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11114 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£97.16Grade 9£88.62BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11115 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£97.16Grade 9£88.62BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11116 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£97.16Grade 9£88.62BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11117 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11118 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,012Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,315CGC 10£11119 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11120 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11121 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11122 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11123 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11124 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11125 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£97.90Grade 9£89.00BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11126 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11127 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,113Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,446CGC 10£11128 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,170Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,521CGC 10£11129 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,170Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,521CGC 10£11130 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,170Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,521CGC 10£11131 Aug 2026PSA 10£1,170Grade 9.5£89.74Grade 9£81.58BGS 10£1,521CGC 10£111
£500£1,000£1,500
14 Apr8 May4 Jun28 Jun21 Jul31 Aug
Graded prices from PriceCharting, in GBP. PSA 10 has been tracked since April 2026; the other tiers began recording 3 August 2026 and join the chart as their history builds.
New listings per day
0 today
How many new UK listings appear for this card each day. Rising supply against a
falling price is the clearest sell signal there is. This counts what we saw, so it is a sample of
the market rather than a total.
4 Aug 2026New listings/day15 Aug 2026New listings/day06 Aug 2026New listings/day07 Aug 2026New listings/day08 Aug 2026New listings/day09 Aug 2026New listings/day010 Aug 2026New listings/day011 Aug 2026New listings/day012 Aug 2026New listings/day013 Aug 2026New listings/day114 Aug 2026New listings/day015 Aug 2026New listings/day016 Aug 2026New listings/day117 Aug 2026New listings/day018 Aug 2026New listings/day019 Aug 2026New listings/day020 Aug 2026New listings/day021 Aug 2026New listings/day022 Aug 2026New listings/day023 Aug 2026New listings/day024 Aug 2026New listings/day025 Aug 2026New listings/day026 Aug 2026New listings/day027 Aug 2026New listings/day028 Aug 2026New listings/day029 Aug 2026New listings/day030 Aug 2026New listings/day031 Aug 2026New listings/day01 Sept 2026New listings/day0
01
4 Aug13 Aug23 Aug1 Sept
New UK listings we saw appear each day. A direct count of what the scanner observed, not an estimate of everything on eBay. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Confirmed sales per day
Auctions that closed with a winning bid. A sale we watched happen, not a listing that
disappeared for unknown reasons.
16 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day1
1
UK auctions that closed with a winning bid each day. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Recent confirmed sales
Confirmed auction results
UK auctions that closed with a winning bid — not listings that merely disappeared.
Observed within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound on the hammer price.
Ended
Bids
Price
16 Aug
42
£120 or more
On sale now in the UK
Building
Live UK listings for this card The scanner records every new UK listing it sees — around 13,600 a day. This fills as soon as one appears for this card, showing asking prices cheapest first.
Where these numbers come from
Three independent readings, shown side by side rather than blended into one figure:
HoloHawkOur own market price, from live UK listings
PriceChartingPublished reference price, USD converted to GBP
PulseTCGPublished reference price, natively GBP
A reading is stored only when a price actually changes, so flat
stretches mean the price held — not that data is missing. Where a source has no history for an item its
line is absent rather than flat. Confirmed sales are UK auctions that closed with a winning bid, observed
within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound. Live listings are asking prices, not sales.
Supply and sales counts are direct observations — listings we saw appear and auctions we saw close with a
bid. We do not infer that a listing sold because it disappeared, so nothing here depends on that guess.