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Prices by grade
Today's figures for every tier.
Raw · ungraded£3.34
Grade 9£14.89
Grade 9.5£16.32
PSA 10£44.70
BGS 10£57.85
CGC 10£14.83
At a glance
30-day high£23.61
30-day low£17.50
Tracked high£23.61
Days tracked141
IllustratorTakumi Wada
Pokédex987
Price history
118 readings · 141d
£23.61+34.9%HoloHawk£3.34+6.7%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
26 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1327 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1228 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1229 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3730 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3731 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.371 Sept 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.372 Sept 2026HoloHawk£23.61PriceCharting£3.34
£10.00£20.00
26 Aug27 Aug27 Aug29 Aug29 Aug2 Sept
£23.61+23.0%HoloHawk£3.34+24.6%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
3 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.684 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.685 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.686 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.147 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.148 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.149 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.1110 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.1111 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0812 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0813 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0814 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0815 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9716 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9717 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£2.9718 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.2019 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.2020 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1521 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1522 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1523 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1524 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1325 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1326 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1327 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1228 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1229 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3730 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3731 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.371 Sept 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.372 Sept 2026HoloHawk£23.61PriceCharting£3.34
£10.00£20.00
3 Aug4 Aug11 Aug18 Aug27 Aug2 Sept
£23.61+9.7%HoloHawk£3.34+12.8%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
14 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9615 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9616 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9617 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9618 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9619 Apr 2026PriceCharting£2.9620 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2321 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2322 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2323 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2124 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2125 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.3426 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.3427 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.3428 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.3429 Apr 2026PriceCharting£3.2030 Apr 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.201 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.202 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.113 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.114 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£2.975 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£2.976 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£2.977 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.238 May 2026HoloHawk£21.53PriceCharting£3.239 May 2026HoloHawk£21.30PriceCharting£3.2310 May 2026HoloHawk£21.00PriceCharting£3.2311 May 2026HoloHawk£21.00PriceCharting£2.9712 May 2026HoloHawk£21.00PriceCharting£2.9713 May 2026HoloHawk£21.00PriceCharting£2.9714 May 2026HoloHawk£20.33PriceCharting£3.2015 May 2026HoloHawk£20.33PriceCharting£3.2016 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2017 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2018 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2019 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2320 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2321 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2322 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2323 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2324 May 2026HoloHawk£20.47PriceCharting£3.2325 May 2026HoloHawk£20.33PriceCharting£3.2326 May 2026HoloHawk£20.33PriceCharting£2.8227 May 2026HoloHawk£20.33PriceCharting£2.8228 May 2026HoloHawk£20.64PriceCharting£2.8229 May 2026HoloHawk£20.64PriceCharting£2.8230 May 2026HoloHawk£20.64PriceCharting£3.3731 May 2026HoloHawk£20.64PriceCharting£3.311 Jun 2026HoloHawk£20.64PriceCharting£3.312 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£3.313 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£2.974 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£2.975 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£2.976 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£2.977 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£3.108 Jun 2026HoloHawk£21.68PriceCharting£3.109 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.1010 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.1611 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.1612 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.1613 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2614 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2615 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2616 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.2717 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.2718 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.0719 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.0720 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.0721 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£3.0722 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£2.9723 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£2.9724 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2225 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2226 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2227 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£3.2228 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£2.9229 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£2.9230 Jun 2026HoloHawk£19.60PriceCharting£2.921 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£2.802 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£2.803 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.90PriceCharting£2.804 Jul 2026HoloHawk£20.08PriceCharting£2.595 Jul 2026HoloHawk£20.08PriceCharting£2.596 Jul 2026HoloHawk£20.08PriceCharting£2.967 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.35PriceCharting£2.968 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.35PriceCharting£2.969 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.35PriceCharting£2.9610 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.50PriceCharting£3.1211 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.50PriceCharting£3.1212 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.1213 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9614 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9615 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9616 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2417 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2418 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2419 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2620 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2621 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2422 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2423 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2424 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.2425 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8626 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8627 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8628 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8229 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8230 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.8231 Jul 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.631 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.632 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.683 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.684 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.685 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.686 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.147 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.148 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.149 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.1110 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.1111 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0812 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0813 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0814 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£3.0815 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9716 Aug 2026HoloHawk£19.20PriceCharting£2.9717 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£2.9718 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.2019 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.2020 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1521 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1522 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1523 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1524 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1325 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1326 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1327 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1228 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.1229 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3730 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.3731 Aug 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.371 Sept 2026HoloHawk£17.50PriceCharting£3.372 Sept 2026HoloHawk£23.61PriceCharting£3.34
£10.00£20.00
14 Apr8 May5 Jun28 Jun22 Jul2 Sept
Three independent readings on one scale. A reading is recorded only when a price changes, so a flat stretch means it held. Hover for any day. PulseTCG has no readings for this card yet.
14 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5715 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5716 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5217 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5218 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5219 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5220 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5121 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5122 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.5123 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0924 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0925 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0926 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0927 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0928 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0929 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.0930 Apr 2026PSA 10£42.091 May 2026PSA 10£42.092 May 2026PSA 10£42.093 May 2026PSA 10£42.094 May 2026PSA 10£41.905 May 2026PSA 10£41.906 May 2026PSA 10£41.907 May 2026PSA 10£41.628 May 2026PSA 10£41.629 May 2026PSA 10£41.6210 May 2026PSA 10£41.6211 May 2026PSA 10£41.6712 May 2026PSA 10£41.6713 May 2026PSA 10£41.6714 May 2026PSA 10£41.6415 May 2026PSA 10£41.6416 May 2026PSA 10£41.6417 May 2026PSA 10£41.5918 May 2026PSA 10£41.5919 May 2026PSA 10£43.2820 May 2026PSA 10£43.2821 May 2026PSA 10£43.2822 May 2026PSA 10£44.5023 May 2026PSA 10£44.5024 May 2026PSA 10£44.5025 May 2026PSA 10£44.5026 May 2026PSA 10£48.2127 May 2026PSA 10£48.2128 May 2026PSA 10£48.2129 May 2026PSA 10£48.2130 May 2026PSA 10£48.2131 May 2026PSA 10£48.211 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.212 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.213 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.214 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.215 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.216 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.217 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.218 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.219 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.2110 Jun 2026PSA 10£55.6211 Jun 2026PSA 10£55.6212 Jun 2026PSA 10£55.6213 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2214 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2215 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2216 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2217 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2218 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2219 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2220 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2221 Jun 2026PSA 10£66.2222 Jun 2026PSA 10£64.3023 Jun 2026PSA 10£64.3024 Jun 2026PSA 10£56.9225 Jun 2026PSA 10£56.9226 Jun 2026PSA 10£56.9227 Jun 2026PSA 10£56.9228 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.9729 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.9730 Jun 2026PSA 10£48.971 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.972 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.973 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.974 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.975 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.976 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.977 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.978 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.979 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.9710 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.9711 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.9712 Jul 2026PSA 10£48.9713 Jul 2026PSA 10£46.1814 Jul 2026PSA 10£46.1815 Jul 2026PSA 10£46.1816 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.9017 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.9018 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.9019 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.3520 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.3521 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1522 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1523 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1524 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1525 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1126 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1127 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1128 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1129 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1130 Jul 2026PSA 10£44.1131 Jul 2026PSA 10£69.951 Aug 2026PSA 10£69.952 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.313 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.314 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£18.54Grade 9£17.06BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.835 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£18.54Grade 9£17.06BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.836 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£18.54Grade 9£17.06BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.837 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£18.54Grade 9£17.06BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.838 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£18.54Grade 9£17.06BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.839 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£15.11BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.8310 Aug 2026PSA 10£44.31Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£15.11BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.8311 Aug 2026PSA 10£43.48Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.96BGS 10£56.37CGC 10£14.8312 Aug 2026PSA 10£43.48Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.96BGS 10£56.37CGC 10£14.8313 Aug 2026PSA 10£43.48Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.96BGS 10£56.37CGC 10£14.8314 Aug 2026PSA 10£43.48Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.96BGS 10£56.37CGC 10£14.8315 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8316 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8317 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8318 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8319 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8320 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8321 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8322 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8323 Aug 2026PSA 10£64.90Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£84.55CGC 10£14.8324 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8325 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8326 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8327 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8328 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8329 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8330 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.8331 Aug 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.831 Sept 2026PSA 10£76.02Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£98.64CGC 10£14.832 Sept 2026PSA 10£44.70Grade 9.5£16.32Grade 9£14.89BGS 10£57.85CGC 10£14.83
£25.00£50.00£75.00
14 Apr8 May5 Jun28 Jun22 Jul2 Sept
Graded prices from PriceCharting, in GBP. PSA 10 has been tracked since April 2026; the other tiers began recording 3 August 2026 and join the chart as their history builds.
New listings per day
1 today
How many new UK listings appear for this card each day. Rising supply against a
falling price is the clearest sell signal there is. This counts what we saw, so it is a sample of
the market rather than a total.
7 Aug 2026New listings/day28 Aug 2026New listings/day09 Aug 2026New listings/day010 Aug 2026New listings/day011 Aug 2026New listings/day112 Aug 2026New listings/day213 Aug 2026New listings/day014 Aug 2026New listings/day015 Aug 2026New listings/day016 Aug 2026New listings/day017 Aug 2026New listings/day118 Aug 2026New listings/day019 Aug 2026New listings/day020 Aug 2026New listings/day121 Aug 2026New listings/day122 Aug 2026New listings/day023 Aug 2026New listings/day024 Aug 2026New listings/day025 Aug 2026New listings/day026 Aug 2026New listings/day027 Aug 2026New listings/day028 Aug 2026New listings/day029 Aug 2026New listings/day030 Aug 2026New listings/day031 Aug 2026New listings/day01 Sept 2026New listings/day1
012
7 Aug15 Aug24 Aug1 Sept
New UK listings we saw appear each day. A direct count of what the scanner observed, not an estimate of everything on eBay. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Confirmed sales per day
Auctions that closed with a winning bid. A sale we watched happen, not a listing that
disappeared for unknown reasons.
6 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day07 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day08 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day09 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day010 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day011 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day012 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day013 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day014 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day015 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day016 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day017 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day018 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day019 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day020 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day021 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day022 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day023 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day024 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day025 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day026 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day027 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day0
-101
6 Aug13 Aug20 Aug27 Aug
UK auctions that closed with a winning bid each day. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Recent confirmed sales
Recording live
No confirmed sales for this card yet
We log every UK auction that closes with a winning bid — around 4,600 a day across the catalogue.
The first result for this card appears here as soon as one sells.
On sale now in the UK
3 live
Fixed-price listings we are currently tracking, cheapest first. Asking prices, not sales,
and a sample of what is listed rather than everything on eBay. Each row opens the listing on eBay — HoloHawk earns a commission on purchases made through it, and it never changes the price you pay.
Three independent readings, shown side by side rather than blended into one figure:
HoloHawkOur own market price, from live UK listings
PriceChartingPublished reference price, USD converted to GBP
PulseTCGPublished reference price, natively GBP
A reading is stored only when a price actually changes, so flat
stretches mean the price held — not that data is missing. Where a source has no history for an item its
line is absent rather than flat. Confirmed sales are UK auctions that closed with a winning bid, observed
within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound. Live listings are asking prices, not sales.
Supply and sales counts are direct observations — listings we saw appear and auctions we saw close with a
bid. We do not infer that a listing sold because it disappeared, so nothing here depends on that guess.