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Prices by grade
PSA 10 = 13.5× raw
Today's figures for every tier. Graded history starts building tonight.
Raw · ungraded£314
Grade 9£1,770
Grade 9.5£1,947
PSA 10£4,248
BGS 10£5,523
CGC 10£2,549
A PSA 10 sells for 13.5× the raw card — a gap of £3,934. Grading fees and the risk of a 9 come out of that.
At a glance
30-day high£314
30-day low£277
Tracked high£314
Days tracked136
IllustratorMasakazu Fukuda
Pokédex448
Price history
112 readings · 136d
HoloHawk Est. MarketPriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
5 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£2136 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£2137 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£2138 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£2049 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20410 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20411 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20412 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20421 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31422 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31423 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31424 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31425 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31426 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31427 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31428 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£314
£250£300
5 Aug8 Aug8 Aug12 Aug
HoloHawk Est. MarketPriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
13 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£19814 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20115 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20116 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20117 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20118 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20119 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20120 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£20121 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21322 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21323 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21324 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21325 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21326 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21327 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21328 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£21329 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£27730 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£27731 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2771 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2772 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2773 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2774 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2775 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2776 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2777 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2958 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2959 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29510 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29511 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29512 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29513 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29514 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29515 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31416 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31417 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31418 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31419 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31420 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31421 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31422 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31423 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31424 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31425 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31426 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31427 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31428 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£314
£200£250£300
29 Jul1 Aug4 Aug28 Aug
HoloHawk Est. MarketPriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
14 Apr 2026PriceCharting£16415 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19416 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19417 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19418 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19419 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19420 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19421 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19422 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19423 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19424 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19425 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19426 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19427 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19428 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19429 Apr 2026PriceCharting£19430 Apr 2026PriceCharting£1941 May 2026PriceCharting£1942 May 2026PriceCharting£1943 May 2026PriceCharting£1944 May 2026PriceCharting£1945 May 2026PriceCharting£2226 May 2026PriceCharting£2227 May 2026PriceCharting£2228 May 2026PriceCharting£2229 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22210 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22211 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22212 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22213 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22214 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22215 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22216 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£22217 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19318 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19319 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19320 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19321 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19222 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19223 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19224 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19225 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19226 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£19227 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£20428 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£20429 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£20430 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£20431 May 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£236PriceCharting£2051 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£203PriceCharting£2052 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2053 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2054 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2055 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2046 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2047 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2048 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2049 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£20410 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£20411 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£20412 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£20413 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£20314 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20315 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20316 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20317 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20318 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20319 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20320 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20321 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20322 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£199PriceCharting£20323 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£20324 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22525 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22526 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22527 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22528 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22529 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£22530 Jun 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2391 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2392 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2393 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2394 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2395 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2416 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£197PriceCharting£2417 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£2418 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£2419 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£24110 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£24111 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£24112 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£24113 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£198PriceCharting£25914 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£25915 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£25916 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£25917 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£25918 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£25919 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£26320 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£201PriceCharting£26321 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26322 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26323 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26324 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26325 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26326 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26327 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£26328 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£27729 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£27730 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£27731 Jul 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2771 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2772 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2773 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2774 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2775 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2776 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2777 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£213PriceCharting£2958 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£2959 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29510 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29511 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29512 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29513 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29514 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£29515 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31416 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31417 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31418 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31419 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31420 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31421 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31422 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31423 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31424 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31425 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31426 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31427 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£31428 Aug 2026HoloHawk Est. Market£204PriceCharting£314
£200£300
14 Apr23 May2 Jul28 Aug
HoloHawk Est. Market · PriceCharting · PulseTCG. Hover any point for that day's figures. Flat sections mean the price did not move — a reading is recorded only when it changes. PulseTCG has no readings for this card yet.
Graded price history
PSA 10 · £4,248
PSA 10Grade 9.5Grade 9BGS 10CGC 10
14 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,11815 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12416 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12417 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12418 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12419 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12420 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12421 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12422 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12423 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12424 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,12425 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,52826 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,52827 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,52828 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,52829 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,52830 Apr 2026PSA 10£2,5281 May 2026PSA 10£2,5282 May 2026PSA 10£2,5283 May 2026PSA 10£2,5284 May 2026PSA 10£2,5285 May 2026PSA 10£2,5376 May 2026PSA 10£2,5377 May 2026PSA 10£2,5378 May 2026PSA 10£2,5379 May 2026PSA 10£2,53710 May 2026PSA 10£2,53711 May 2026PSA 10£2,53712 May 2026PSA 10£2,89313 May 2026PSA 10£2,89314 May 2026PSA 10£2,89315 May 2026PSA 10£2,89316 May 2026PSA 10£2,89317 May 2026PSA 10£2,89818 May 2026PSA 10£2,89819 May 2026PSA 10£2,89820 May 2026PSA 10£2,89821 May 2026PSA 10£2,52622 May 2026PSA 10£2,52623 May 2026PSA 10£2,52624 May 2026PSA 10£2,52625 May 2026PSA 10£2,52626 May 2026PSA 10£2,52627 May 2026PSA 10£2,52528 May 2026PSA 10£2,52529 May 2026PSA 10£2,52530 May 2026PSA 10£2,52531 May 2026PSA 10£2,6831 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,6832 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,6833 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,6834 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,6835 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,7016 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,7017 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,7018 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,7019 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70110 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70111 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70112 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70113 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70114 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70115 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70116 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70117 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70118 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70119 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70120 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70121 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70122 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70123 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,70124 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69425 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69426 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69427 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69428 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69429 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,69430 Jun 2026PSA 10£2,9841 Jul 2026PSA 10£2,9842 Jul 2026PSA 10£2,9843 Jul 2026PSA 10£2,9844 Jul 2026PSA 10£2,9845 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,1836 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,1837 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,1838 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,1839 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,18310 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,18311 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,18312 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,18313 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21314 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21315 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21316 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21317 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21318 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,21319 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45320 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45321 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45322 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45323 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45324 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45325 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45326 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45327 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,45328 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,52629 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,52630 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,52631 Jul 2026PSA 10£3,5261 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,5262 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,5263 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,5264 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,526Grade 9.5£1,623Grade 9£1,475BGS 10£4,584CGC 10£2,1155 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,526Grade 9.5£1,623Grade 9£1,475BGS 10£4,584CGC 10£2,1156 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,526Grade 9.5£1,623Grade 9£1,475BGS 10£4,584CGC 10£2,1157 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,2328 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,2329 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23210 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23211 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23212 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23213 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23214 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,720Grade 9.5£1,710Grade 9£1,554BGS 10£4,836CGC 10£2,23215 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,980Grade 9.5£1,827Grade 9£1,661BGS 10£5,174CGC 10£2,38816 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,980Grade 9.5£1,827Grade 9£1,661BGS 10£5,174CGC 10£2,38817 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,980Grade 9.5£1,827Grade 9£1,661BGS 10£5,174CGC 10£2,38818 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,980Grade 9.5£1,827Grade 9£1,661BGS 10£5,174CGC 10£2,38819 Aug 2026PSA 10£3,980Grade 9.5£1,827Grade 9£1,661BGS 10£5,174CGC 10£2,38820 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54221 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54222 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54223 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54224 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54225 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54226 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54227 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,236Grade 9.5£1,943Grade 9£1,767BGS 10£5,507CGC 10£2,54228 Aug 2026PSA 10£4,248Grade 9.5£1,947Grade 9£1,770BGS 10£5,523CGC 10£2,549
£2,000£4,000
14 Apr23 May2 Jul28 Aug
Graded prices from PriceCharting, in GBP. PSA 10 has been tracked since April 2026; the other tiers began recording 3 August 2026 and join the chart as their history builds.
New listings per day
0 today
How many new UK listings appear for this card each day. Rising supply against a
falling price is the clearest sell signal there is. This counts what we saw, so it is a sample of
the market rather than a total.
8 Aug 2026New listings/day19 Aug 2026New listings/day010 Aug 2026New listings/day011 Aug 2026New listings/day012 Aug 2026New listings/day013 Aug 2026New listings/day014 Aug 2026New listings/day015 Aug 2026New listings/day016 Aug 2026New listings/day017 Aug 2026New listings/day018 Aug 2026New listings/day019 Aug 2026New listings/day020 Aug 2026New listings/day021 Aug 2026New listings/day022 Aug 2026New listings/day023 Aug 2026New listings/day024 Aug 2026New listings/day025 Aug 2026New listings/day026 Aug 2026New listings/day027 Aug 2026New listings/day028 Aug 2026New listings/day029 Aug 2026New listings/day030 Aug 2026New listings/day0
01
8 Aug15 Aug23 Aug30 Aug
New UK listings we saw appear each day. A direct count of what the scanner observed, not an estimate of everything on eBay. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Confirmed sales per day
Auctions that closed with a winning bid. A sale we watched happen, not a listing that
disappeared for unknown reasons.
4 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day05 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day06 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day07 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day08 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day09 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day010 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day011 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day012 Aug 2026Confirmed sales/day1
01
4 Aug4 Aug12 Aug12 Aug
UK auctions that closed with a winning bid each day. Source: HoloHawk, observed directly on eBay UK.
Recent confirmed sales
Confirmed auction results
UK auctions that closed with a winning bid — not listings that merely disappeared.
Observed within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound on the hammer price.
Ended
Bids
Price
12 Aug
5
£44.04 or more
On sale now in the UK
1 live
Fixed-price listings we are currently tracking, cheapest first. Asking prices, not sales,
and a sample of what is listed rather than everything on eBay. Each row opens the listing on eBay — HoloHawk earns a commission on purchases made through it, and it never changes the price you pay.
Three independent readings, shown side by side rather than blended into one figure:
HoloHawk Est. MarketOur own estimate, from live UK listings
PriceChartingPublished reference price, USD converted to GBP
PulseTCGPublished reference price, natively GBP
A reading is stored only when a price actually changes, so flat
stretches mean the price held — not that data is missing. Where a source has no history for an item its
line is absent rather than flat. Confirmed sales are UK auctions that closed with a winning bid, observed
within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound. Live listings are asking prices, not sales.
Supply and sales counts are direct observations — listings we saw appear and auctions we saw close with a
bid. We do not infer that a listing sold because it disappeared, so nothing here depends on that guess.