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Prices by grade
PSA 10 = 16.2× raw
Today's figures for every tier.
Raw · ungraded£6.98
PSA 10£113
PSA 9£11.82
CGC 10£26.25
BGS 10£147
A PSA 10 sells for 16.2× the raw card — a gap of £106. Grading fees and the risk of a 9 come out of that.
At a glance
30-day high£7.47
30-day low£6.98
Tracked high£14.17
Days tracked192
Illustratorkodama
Pokédex915
Price history
122 readings · 192d
HoloHawk awaiting data£6.98-6.6%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
16 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4717 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4718 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4719 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1120 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1121 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1122 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1123 Oct 2026PriceCharting£6.98
£7.00£7.20£7.40
16 Oct16 Oct19 Oct19 Oct23 Oct23 Oct
HoloHawk awaiting data£6.98-4.3%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
23 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2924 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2925 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2926 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2927 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2928 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.9929 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.9930 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.991 Oct 2026PriceCharting£6.992 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.383 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.384 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.385 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.386 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.387 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.388 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.389 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3810 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3811 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3812 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3813 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3814 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3815 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4716 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4717 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4718 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4719 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1120 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1121 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1122 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1123 Oct 2026PriceCharting£6.98
£7.00£7.20£7.40
23 Sept28 Sept2 Oct15 Oct19 Oct23 Oct
HoloHawk awaiting data£6.98-48.3%PriceChartingPulseTCG awaiting data
14 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5015 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5016 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5017 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5018 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5019 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5020 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5021 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5022 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5023 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5024 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5025 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5026 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5027 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5028 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5029 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.5030 Apr 2026PriceCharting£13.501 May 2026PriceCharting£13.502 May 2026PriceCharting£13.503 May 2026PriceCharting£13.504 May 2026PriceCharting£13.505 May 2026PriceCharting£13.506 May 2026PriceCharting£13.507 May 2026PriceCharting£13.508 May 2026PriceCharting£13.509 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5010 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5011 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5012 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5013 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5014 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5015 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5016 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5017 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5018 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5019 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5020 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5021 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5022 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5023 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5024 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5025 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5026 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5027 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5028 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5029 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5030 May 2026PriceCharting£13.5031 May 2026PriceCharting£13.501 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.502 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.503 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.504 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.505 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.506 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.507 Jun 2026PriceCharting£13.508 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.759 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7510 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7511 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7512 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7513 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7514 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7515 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7516 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7517 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7518 Jun 2026PriceCharting£12.7519 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2520 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2521 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2522 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2523 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2524 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2525 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2526 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2527 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2528 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2529 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.2530 Jun 2026PriceCharting£11.251 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.252 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.253 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.254 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.255 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.256 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.257 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.258 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.259 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2510 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2511 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2512 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2513 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2514 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2515 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2516 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2517 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2518 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2519 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.2520 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2521 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2522 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2523 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2524 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2525 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2526 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2527 Jul 2026PriceCharting£12.2528 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.6929 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.6930 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.6931 Jul 2026PriceCharting£11.691 Aug 2026PriceCharting£11.692 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.373 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.374 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.375 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.376 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.377 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.378 Aug 2026PriceCharting£12.379 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1710 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1711 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1712 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1713 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1714 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1715 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1716 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1717 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1718 Aug 2026PriceCharting£14.1719 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.6320 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.6321 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.6322 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.4023 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.4024 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.4025 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.4026 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.4027 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.2928 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.2929 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.2930 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.2931 Aug 2026PriceCharting£8.291 Sept 2026PriceCharting£8.182 Sept 2026PriceCharting£8.183 Sept 2026PriceCharting£8.184 Sept 2026PriceCharting£8.185 Sept 2026PriceCharting£8.186 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.717 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.718 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.719 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.7110 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.7111 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.5312 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.5313 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.5314 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.5315 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.5316 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4617 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4618 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4619 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4620 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4621 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.4622 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2923 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2924 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2925 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2926 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2927 Sept 2026PriceCharting£7.2928 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.9929 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.9930 Sept 2026PriceCharting£6.991 Oct 2026PriceCharting£6.992 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.383 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.384 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.385 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.386 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.387 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.388 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.389 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3810 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3811 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3812 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3813 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3814 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.3815 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4716 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4717 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4718 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.4719 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1120 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1121 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1122 Oct 2026PriceCharting£7.1123 Oct 2026PriceCharting£6.98
£8.00£10.00£12.00£14.00
14 Apr9 May6 Jun1 Jul25 Jul23 Oct
Three independent readings on one scale. A reading is recorded only when a price changes, so a flat stretch means it held. Hover or tap any day. HoloHawk and PulseTCG have no readings for this card yet.
14 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7715 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7716 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7717 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7718 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7719 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7720 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7721 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7722 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7723 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7724 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7725 Apr 2026PSA 10£90.7726 Apr 2026PSA 10£91.1527 Apr 2026PSA 10£91.1528 Apr 2026PSA 10£91.1529 Apr 2026PSA 10£91.1530 Apr 2026PSA 10£91.151 May 2026PSA 10£91.152 May 2026PSA 10£91.153 May 2026PSA 10£91.154 May 2026PSA 10£91.355 May 2026PSA 10£91.356 May 2026PSA 10£91.357 May 2026PSA 10£91.358 May 2026PSA 10£91.359 May 2026PSA 10£91.3510 May 2026PSA 10£91.3511 May 2026PSA 10£91.3512 May 2026PSA 10£91.3513 May 2026PSA 10£91.3514 May 2026PSA 10£91.5415 May 2026PSA 10£91.5416 May 2026PSA 10£91.5417 May 2026PSA 10£91.5418 May 2026PSA 10£91.5419 May 2026PSA 10£91.5420 May 2026PSA 10£91.5421 May 2026PSA 10£91.5422 May 2026PSA 10£91.5423 May 2026PSA 10£91.5424 May 2026PSA 10£91.5425 May 2026PSA 10£91.5426 May 2026PSA 10£91.5427 May 2026PSA 10£91.5428 May 2026PSA 10£91.5429 May 2026PSA 10£91.5430 May 2026PSA 10£91.5431 May 2026PSA 10£88.611 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.612 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.613 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.614 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.615 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.616 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.617 Jun 2026PSA 10£88.618 Jun 2026PSA 10£1039 Jun 2026PSA 10£10310 Jun 2026PSA 10£10311 Jun 2026PSA 10£10312 Jun 2026PSA 10£10313 Jun 2026PSA 10£10314 Jun 2026PSA 10£10315 Jun 2026PSA 10£10316 Jun 2026PSA 10£10317 Jun 2026PSA 10£10318 Jun 2026PSA 10£10319 Jun 2026PSA 10£10320 Jun 2026PSA 10£10321 Jun 2026PSA 10£10322 Jun 2026PSA 10£10323 Jun 2026PSA 10£10324 Jun 2026PSA 10£10325 Jun 2026PSA 10£10326 Jun 2026PSA 10£10327 Jun 2026PSA 10£10328 Jun 2026PSA 10£10329 Jun 2026PSA 10£10330 Jun 2026PSA 10£1031 Jul 2026PSA 10£1032 Jul 2026PSA 10£1033 Jul 2026PSA 10£1034 Jul 2026PSA 10£1035 Jul 2026PSA 10£1036 Jul 2026PSA 10£1037 Jul 2026PSA 10£1038 Jul 2026PSA 10£1039 Jul 2026PSA 10£10310 Jul 2026PSA 10£10311 Jul 2026PSA 10£10312 Jul 2026PSA 10£10313 Jul 2026PSA 10£10314 Jul 2026PSA 10£10315 Jul 2026PSA 10£10316 Jul 2026PSA 10£10317 Jul 2026PSA 10£10318 Jul 2026PSA 10£10319 Jul 2026PSA 10£10320 Jul 2026PSA 10£10321 Jul 2026PSA 10£10322 Jul 2026PSA 10£10323 Jul 2026PSA 10£10324 Jul 2026PSA 10£10325 Jul 2026PSA 10£10326 Jul 2026PSA 10£10327 Jul 2026PSA 10£10328 Jul 2026PSA 10£10329 Jul 2026PSA 10£10330 Jul 2026PSA 10£10331 Jul 2026PSA 10£1031 Aug 2026PSA 10£1032 Aug 2026PSA 10£1033 Aug 2026PSA 10£1034 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1345 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1346 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1347 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1348 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1349 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13410 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13411 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13412 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13413 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13414 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13415 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13416 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13417 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13418 Aug 2026PSA 10£103PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£13419 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14620 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14621 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14622 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14623 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14624 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14625 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14626 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14627 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14628 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14629 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14630 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14631 Aug 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1461 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1462 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1463 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1464 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1465 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1466 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1467 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1468 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1469 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14610 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14611 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14612 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14613 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14614 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14615 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14616 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14617 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14618 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14619 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14620 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14621 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14622 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14623 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14624 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14625 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14626 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14627 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14628 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14629 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14630 Sept 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1461 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1462 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1463 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1464 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1465 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1466 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1467 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1468 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£1469 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14610 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14611 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14612 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14613 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14614 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14615 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14716 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14717 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14718 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14719 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14720 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14721 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14722 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£14723 Oct 2026PSA 10£113PSA 9£11.82CGC 10£26.25BGS 10£147
£50.00£100
14 Apr9 May6 Jun1 Jul25 Jul23 Oct
Graded prices from PriceCharting, in GBP. PSA 10 has been tracked since April 2026; the other tiers began recording 3 August 2026 and join the chart as their history builds.
New listings per day
Building
How much new stock hits the UK market each day The scanner records every new UK listing it sees — around 13,600 a day. This charts how many appear for this card once the daily rollup has readings for it.
A direct count of listings we saw appear — not an estimate of every listing on eBay.
Confirmed sales per day
Building
How often this card actually sells We record roughly 4,600 UK auction outcomes a day across the catalogue. This charts how many close with a winning bid, day by day, from the first confirmed sale for this card.
Only auctions that finished with a bid count. A listing vanishing is not proof of a sale, so it is not counted as one.
Recent confirmed sales
Recording live
No confirmed sales for this card yet
We log every UK auction that closes with a winning bid — around 4,600 a day across the catalogue.
The first result for this card appears here as soon as one sells.
On sale now in the UK
Building
Live UK listings for this card The scanner records every new UK listing it sees — around 13,600 a day. This fills as soon as one appears for this card, showing asking prices cheapest first.
Where these numbers come from
Three independent readings, shown side by side rather than blended into one figure:
HoloHawkOur own market price, from live UK listings
PriceChartingPublished reference price, USD converted to GBP
PulseTCGPublished reference price, natively GBP
A reading is stored only when a price actually changes, so flat
stretches mean the price held — not that data is missing. Where a source has no history for an item its
line is absent rather than flat. Confirmed sales are UK auctions that closed with a winning bid, observed
within three minutes of close, so each is a lower bound. Live listings are asking prices, not sales.
Supply and sales counts are direct observations — listings we saw appear and auctions we saw close with a
bid. We do not infer that a listing sold because it disappeared, so nothing here depends on that guess.